30 for 30: Once Upon a Time In Queens - IGT

JPSchmack

HOF'er Who Needs To Retire
Administrator
That was great.

About halfway through it, I forgot Ray Knight was Ray Knight, and kept thinking it was Darrel Hammond as Bill Clinton.
 

JPSchmack

HOF'er Who Needs To Retire
Administrator
And then Cashen gets rid of Knight...the fuckery
Ok, I know what the guys said about Ray Knight, but we had Howard Johnson, Kevin Mitchell and Dave Magadan to play 3B/SS.

Giving a two-year deal to Knight was out of the question because it would have been insane. He had a .645 OPS and a 76 OPS+ the next two seasons, the last of his career.

Magadan was 120 OPS+ in 1987-88
Johnson was a 129 OPS+ in 1987-88 (10th in MVP voting in 1987,

Mitchell was 120 OPS+ in 1987-88, and won the fucking MVP in 1989. We could have had his rights until 1994 (149 OPS+ over 7 years!)

Trading Mitchell isn't considered one of the worst Mets trades of all-time, but it really should be like the fifth-worst. Because while we got a good, 27-year old LF who didn't do anything wrong and was a pretty good supplemental piece so the trade didn't look bad on paper... we traded a 24-year old soon to be MVP who had position premium and versatility.... just because two of his teammates were addicts!

We could have just signed an OF with Knight's money... like Andre Dawson, whom no one offered a contract to and he literally got a blank contract, signed it and gave it to the Cubs that offseason... and then won the MVP award with 47 HR. (Dawson got $25,000 more than what Knight got from Baltimore, and the Mets offered Knight $200,000 more than he ended up signing for.

We could have skullfucked the league for five years if we didn't trade Mitchell.
 

JPSchmack

HOF'er Who Needs To Retire
Administrator
And to think, for just winning the division lol
The thing you have to remember is that MLB / Pro Sports has massively changed in terms of the separation between fans and players since then.

Starting financially -- The average income from 1986-88 in New York State was 41,000 and Kevin Mitchell made 60,000 in 1986. In 35 years, the average income has grown $30k in the US, and baseball's average salary has gone up by 10x what it was in 1986.

And also physically. They now build stadiums in ways where players and fans have zero chance of interacting -- so much so that some brand new places have built a way for fans to see the players walk by on purpose. But back in the day... to get to the visiting clubhouse at Wrigley, you walked out of the tunnel and the door was on your left and straight ahead was the concession stands and fans.

You think of "Storming the Field/Court" as just a college thing now -- because in small basketball gyms with fans on top of players, and fans/players are peers/classmates... but it used to be like that in the pros and the pros just built separation and colleges didn't (as fast). And now, colleges ARE following suit, conferences are fining schools for storming and new arena/stadiums are built like pro stadiums.

Storming the field is unthinkable NOW in pro sports -- I watched the Malice in the Palace ESPN doc, and the first thing I thought of was "Holy shit, it was really easy for Artest to just go up there!" because I forgot how blurred the line between fans/field of play used to be.

It's not that Mets fans went so fucking apeshit they did something as insane as storm the field; storming the field wasn't that insane. The 1986 Mets clincher was basically the lynch pin in MLB cracking down on it.... because our storming was just absolutely next level epic fan storm shit.

That's why they had the horses for the World Series.

In 1996 when the Yankees were about to win it, they had cops come out in foul territory and horses and shit. (Remember Wade Boggs on the horse?) They didn't know if New York fans would keep their tradition going after MLB had almost had it totally stamped out. When the Yankees won in 1996, and the fans DIDN'T storm the field... that's when MLB realized they'd won the battle.
 
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JPSchmack

HOF'er Who Needs To Retire
Administrator
Those of us who are old enough to remember that team, cherish the memory.
Here’s the thing though…. If it wasn’t for those two miracle games against Houston and Boston, that era would’ve been remembered a lot differently. The Cards owned us every other year. Tudor and Pendleton owned us. Then there was the Scocsia game in the WS a couple years later.
We had one beautiful, magical carpet ride in ‘86, but that was it,
Oh, that reminds me of the other thing I was going to mention. 1977 to 1993 was probably the hardest it ever was to win in baseball. This isn't old-man shit, this is math based.

Only the division winners made the playoffs, so it was like four six-team leagues.

Which sounds like it would be easier than in the 8-teams per league, one playoff team per league, but
(a) winning before 1969 sent you straight to the World Series, not the LCS, and
(b) before 1969, there weren't any "non-division games" so 4 of 8 teams lost every day and you could gain ground easier. In 85, the whole division could win a game with no losses that day.
(c) in 1977 (there were 26 teams and) free agency started, making it was a fuckload harder because doormat teams didn't stay doormats as long.

The Mets missed the playoffs in:
1984 (90 wins)
1985 (95 wins)
1987 (92 wins)
1989 (87 wins)
1990 (91 wins)

Since 1996, four 90+ win NL teams have missed the playoffs. We did 3 times in seven years, and another with 87 wins.

Under the one WC rule, we would have had seven-straight playoff appearances. And played the choking Cubs twice in those five missing series; with our pitching staff in LDS play (we've never lost an LDS!) we'd have been a dynasty.
 

metzol

My helmet brings all the boys to MR
Thought I’d watch a few minutes before making a little breakfast and maybe finish it later. Lol, I watched the first two parts without moving from the couch.

This whole time and place was such a big part of my adolescence. I’m so glad that it’s well documented.

Some random thoughts…

- Keith really didn’t like Carter then and now. I wonder what it was. Feels like something deeper than just a personality clash.

- Male fans really used to sit in the stands topless. Glad that tradition ended.

- I stormed the field at Shea once. It was the last Jets game there in December of 1983. Surreal to think I did that. We tore up the field and the bench bleachers and the goal posts. For years I kept a part of a bench from the stands and two patches of turf. Sadly, I threw them out.

- I remember that feeling when we started 1986 at 2-3. Lol, it felt like the season was over and we weren’t going anywhere.

- I like Lenny again. I thought he became a real low life. He did but I can’t help but like him.
 

metzol

My helmet brings all the boys to MR
So weird. I have no recollection of Game 5 of the NLCS and it was pretty epic.
 

Funky Boobster

Still Strokes His Mom's Pussy
Thought I’d watch a few minutes before making a little breakfast and maybe finish it later. Lol, I watched the first two parts without moving from the couch.

This whole time and place was such a big part of my adolescence. I’m so glad that it’s well documented.

Some random thoughts…

- Keith really didn’t like Carter then and now. I wonder what it was. Feels like something deeper than just a personality clash.

- Male fans really used to sit in the stands topless. Glad that tradition ended.
Nobody liked Carter because he was a rah-rah goody two shoes type of guy. You know the story. That’s why they called him Kid. Cause he played the game like a big kid. He would rub people the wrong way. Not because he was a bad guy. In fact he was anything but. He was a genuinely good person, and anyone who knew him would tell you that. It was just his general personality. Add to that having him be an alpha on the same team as another alpha and, well. But Keith matured a lot during his tenure on the Mets and became a true leader. Part of being a leader is working with people you may not like and making it work so that you don’t disturb the chemistry. He learned to do that and tolerated Carter. But in time he learned to like him and even though they were never best friends, they could coexist and be friendly towards one another.

When Carter died he went on with Francesca and broke down. He expressed regret about how he treated Carter over the years, and really regretted not talking to him before he died. They had a complicated relationship to say the least.
 

metzol

My helmet brings all the boys to MR
Nobody liked Carter because he was a rah-rah goody two shoes type of guy. You know the story. That’s why they called him Kid. Cause he played the game like a big kid. He would rub people the wrong way. Not because he was a bad guy. In fact he was anything but. He was a genuinely good person, and anyone who knew him would tell you that. It was just his general personality. Add to that having him be an alpha on the same team as another alpha and, well. But Keith matured a lot during his tenure on the Mets and became a true leader. Part of being a leader is working with people you may not like and making it work so that you don’t disturb the chemistry. He learned to do that and tolerated Carter. But in time he learned to like him and even though they were never best friends, they could coexist and be friendly towards one another.

When Carter died he went on with Francesca and broke down. He expressed regret about how he treated Carter over the years, and really regretted not talking to him before he died. They had a complicated relationship to say the least.
Yeah I just found it interesting how all of the dislike came bubbling up in this doc. I figured after he died he would’ve calmed down some. It seems like the dislike is still there.
 

dptydwg420

Not to be confused with BlazeKing420
Moderator
Ray Knight was really the man. his fight was the best. disgraceful they didnt resign him and in general how they dismantled that team

very well done. enjoyed it immensely. found some of the music and video overlays to be a little much sometimes (OMG COCAINE VISUAL), but all in all muy bueno

they must have hours upon hours of unused stuff and interviews w ppl
 

dptydwg420

Not to be confused with BlazeKing420
Moderator
and also just amazing even the last time we won, 35 fucking years ago, even then - we had to pull it back from the clutches of defeat several times in insane ways

pretty wild. shows you the beast we have to slay to get back there
 

JPSchmack

HOF'er Who Needs To Retire
Administrator
Yeah I just found it interesting how all of the dislike came bubbling up in this doc. I figured after he died he would’ve calmed down some. It seems like the dislike is still there.
Eh, a lot of that is editing. Explaining why they weren't friends is quick and entertaining. Explaining their relationship is long and complicated and not great TV. They all respected Gary Carter. They knew he was a warrior, a great player, helped their young staff, and helped them win. They just weren't friends.

Keith was talking about finding Carter after the celebration and the picture of them together and he held it up and the doc cut awkwardly as if it was six seconds over and that was the six seconds they choose to cut.
 

METS LEGIONS

It’s good to be the fantasy drama queen
Felt bad for George Foster.
Foster was so stupid with his racism shit.
He was a failed player and lost his job to mitch.
Plus he lived right next door to wilpons in Greenwich when he was with mets. How u think he got to shea for WS . His mets mesmerized club continued after his departure why because fredro like george.
 

JPSchmack

HOF'er Who Needs To Retire
Administrator
I am a little biased because I grew up with a kid who was so much like Gary Carter. He was an awesome dude, he just rubbed us all the wrong way. We were all hyper competitive playing sports all day long, and I'm out there swearing like Dykstra and he's saying "aww, gee" and "shucks" when things didn't go his way. He'd just bowl you over playing basketball and you're like "dude." He was a daytime friend.

In the evenings, we hung out with him like a third of the time the rest of us were together. We'd invite him, but either he didn't want to do what we wanted to do, or he'd have to ask his mom if like a movie was okay or if it had too much swearing, violence or any nudity in it. And it just got easier to not invite him anytime we were going somewhere to talk to girls or didn't have an exact plan.
 

JPSchmack

HOF'er Who Needs To Retire
Administrator
Felt bad for George Foster.
It's Ed Lynch you should feel sorry for. He said it was like getting kicked out of the family on Christmas Eve in the doc.

In the Bad Guys Won, he said that when he was leaving Shea as a Cubs player after the Mets clinched, he saw Randy Myers with bottles of champagne in each hand, arm around a girl, huge grin on his face. Myers took Lynch's spot on the roster when they traded him and had been with the team for two months. Lynch had been a Met since 1980.
 

METS LEGIONS

It’s good to be the fantasy drama queen
It's Ed Lynch you should feel sorry for. He said it was like getting kicked out of the family on Christmas Eve in the doc.

In the Bad Guys Won, he said that when he was leaving Shea as a Cubs player after the Mets clinched, he saw Randy Myers with bottles of champagne in each hand, arm around a girl, huge grin on his face. Myers took Lynch's spot on the roster when they traded him and had been with the team for two months. Lynch had been a Met since 1980.
Lynch really got shaft but he had nice career as executive for cubbies
 

dptydwg420

Not to be confused with BlazeKing420
Moderator
straw alluded to being jealous of carter for not living for baseball or being on the edge like all the other guys

i thought that was an interesting thread that had potential
 

METS LEGIONS

It’s good to be the fantasy drama queen
Let me just say that lenny was absolutely fucking amazing in documentary I want the directors cut with more footage.
I believe they go farther with team dismantling by showing Pendleton homer in 87 but cut it out for the ending they settled on
 

metzol

My helmet brings all the boys to MR
It's Ed Lynch you should feel sorry for. He said it was like getting kicked out of the family on Christmas Eve in the doc.

In the Bad Guys Won, he said that when he was leaving Shea as a Cubs player after the Mets clinched, he saw Randy Myers with bottles of champagne in each hand, arm around a girl, huge grin on his face. Myers took Lynch's spot on the roster when they traded him and had been with the team for two months. Lynch had been a Met since 1980.
I feel bad for him too.
 

MoMoneyMoProblems

The Jewish Wilt Chamberlain
They all loved Carter as a player, but he was just never one of the guys.

He was the only player that sat in the front of the plane with the coaches.
 

JPSchmack

HOF'er Who Needs To Retire
Administrator
straw alluded to being jealous of carter for not living for baseball or being on the edge like all the other guys

i thought that was an interesting thread that had potential
Yeah, that was another place I thought they chopped down for time. They showed a clip of Straw preaching as B-Roll, but didn't dig into having Straw look back at the relationship they had then with Carter and how they view it now.
 

metzol

My helmet brings all the boys to MR
Foster was so stupid with his racism shit.
He was a failed player and lost his job to mitch.
Plus he lived right next door to wilpons in Greenwich when he was with mets. How u think he got to shea for WS . His mets mesmerized club continued after his departure why because fredro like george.
His comment was off base but not worth getting fired over. Plus, Cashen was proven to be a bit racist in how he traded Mitchell so maybe there was some validity to Foster’s comment.
 

METS LEGIONS

It’s good to be the fantasy drama queen
Yeah, that was another place I thought they chopped down for time. They showed a clip of Straw preaching as B-Roll, but didn't dig into having Straw look back at the relationship they had then with Carter and how they view it now.
Only way u get that is if u do the documentary like they did Jordan and the last dance a 10 hr documentary warts and all.

8 hrs on players
1 hr on LCD
55 minutes on WS and parade.
5 minutes on dismantling and Pendleton hr in 87 that seal the team fate for 88 89 seasons
 

JPSchmack

HOF'er Who Needs To Retire
Administrator
Let me just say that lenny was absolutely fucking amazing in documentary I want the directors cut with more footage.
I believe they go farther with team dismantling by showing Pendleton homer in 87 but cut it out for the ending they settled on
That Pendleton homer was a significant trauma event in my nine-year old life. Like, 4th in MLB in wins (91) and don't get to go to the playoffs, while
San Francisco (90) and Minnesota (85) do?
 
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