Loup/McNeil "Mets lacked clubhouse leader"

METS LEGIONS

It’s good to be the fantasy drama queen
You can be the best player on the team (though he was not that at all this year) but not be the team leader. The idea that Lindor has to be the leader because of his contract is dumb. Lindor is fun and brings a lot of energy, but he doesn’t strike me as a leader. I can’t see him calling someone out for not doing what they are supposed to or putting them in their place when they step out of line. Personally I think McNeil and Loup are right. I don’t think there is anyone in that clubhouse with the on the field credibility AND the personality to call other players out. Seems like everyone there is very non confrontational and Willie Champagne positive.
I beg to differ I bet Baez can and tell them u ain't won shit I got WS ring yall got nothing.

Baez is the ENFORCER
 

Ballpark_Frankx

Bunting for Backman
Lack of a coherent game plan is more like it. I mean 15 batters in and the team Ks like 7 times, you might want to have a different approach. It was pretty much one size fits all the entire season for the most part.

Go back and look at the 86 and 99-2000 teams and theres a healthy mix of both table setters, doubles hitters, speed and power guys. This team is all about hit it as far as you can ... No matter the shift... Never gonna have success that way i dont care who manages.
 
Lack of a coherent game plan is more like it. I mean 15 batters in and the team Ks like 7 times, you might want to have a different approach. It was pretty much one size fits all the entire season for the most part.

Go back and look at the 86 and 99-2000 teams and theres a healthy mix of both table setters, doubles hitters, speed and power guys. This team is all about hit it as far as you can ... No matter the shift... Never gonna have success that way i dont care who manages.
https://www.statmuse.com/mlb/ask/mlb-team-with-the-most-strike-outs-per-game-in-2021

The Mets were actually 17th in Ks per game this year, middle of the pack.

The Rays, Yankees, Brewers, Braves, Giants and Dodgers all struck out more than the Mets this year.

The game has changed.
 

Ballpark_Frankx

Bunting for Backman
https://www.statmuse.com/mlb/ask/mlb-team-with-the-most-strike-outs-per-game-in-2021

The Mets were actually 17th in Ks per game this year, middle of the pack.

The Rays, Yankees, Brewers, Braves, Giants and Dodgers all struck out more than the Mets this year.

The game has changed.
And so the game changes. You can adapt within the game and still allow for the power bats to control the game if thats your focus.

I think one of the things that totally pisses people off is that the team that beat us in 2015 was not a power team. They realized that and found other ways to win.

No matter how much you might hate that a team with speed and small ball ability can win... There's a time to adapt and actually use a plan B once in awhile. Even if it just makes the opposition have to think twice about what you're up to.
 
And so the game changes. You can adapt within the game and still allow for the power bats to control the game if thats your focus.

I think one of the things that totally pisses people off is that the team that beat us in 2015 was not a power team. They realized that and found other ways to win.

No matter how much you might hate that a team with speed and small ball ability can win... There's a time to adapt and actually use a plan B once in awhile. Even if it just makes the opposition have to think twice about what you're up to.
So what adaptions, in your opinion, have those teams made in order to have success while still striking out even more than the Mets have?
 

Ballpark_Frankx

Bunting for Backman
So what adaptions, in your opinion, have those teams made in order to have success while still striking out even more than the Mets have?
For starts, and i dont pretend to have a pulse on every team out there so Ill speak from a perspective of this team that bored me to death in the middle innings.. if you truly are in game managing, you can realize what your competence is against the competition. If a team gives you the entire side of an infield for instance, fucking use it! Hello Cardinals!.

If the team you're facing can't hold runners on worth a shit, tear up the book that says never steal a base coz you might run into an out.

And so on. I used to take my naps from innings 4-7 cos i knew nothing was gonna happen. Multiply that times 162 and its a total bullshit way to run a team.

When it comes to 1 run game management, it just wasnt even in our vocabulary
 

Southy

Refugee
The Goof Troop all need to go, McNeil, Davis and Conforto. If they can get a good trade for Alonso, I don't care if he's gone either. If not, he needs someone to pin him against a locker every time he tells people to enjoy losing. He's big but soft and doughy, a guy like Baez will scare the shit out of him.
 

amazin port

Refugee
So what adaptions, in your opinion, have those teams made in order to have success while still striking out even more than the Mets have?
Well whatever the adaptions are .....we never got the memo. Look at the hitting decline from 2019 and 2020 to what happened this year.

How could a team go from a decent and excellently ranked offence in 2019 and 2020 and then in 2021, ranked
Ave - 20th
OBP - 17th
Slg - 25th
wOBA - 21st
wRC+ - 16th

People decry the basic nature of Batting Ave, but when ostensibly the same team went:

2019 - . 274 - 2nd (ranked)
2020 - .272 - 1st
2021 - .328 - 20th 🤷‍♂️🤷‍♂️🤷‍♂️ ....there has to be an organisational reason/input into why.

The game changes, but you play the game to your strengths, your environment and what best suits your players.....no two teams are the same
 

code

Happier than the Pillsbury Doughboy on his way to
No leader? Then lead, motherfuckers. That's what leaders do. That's how it works in the real world.
 

Gomo

Veteran Refugee
McNeil is getting traded
I've felt this way since the fight first happened. Well first it was clear there's no way they could be a double play tandem long term. But McNeil's underperformance and poor attitude further seals his inevitable departure for me. Also, you say there's no leader. What's stopping you from stepping up and leading, Jeffrey? Instead he just whines every time he makes an out. I can't take this guy's BS.
 

amazin port

Refugee
No leader? Then lead, motherfuckers. That's what leaders do. That's how it works in the real world.
Reading between the lines McNeil's not complaining about there being no leader he's actually complaining that Lindor took/assumed/ was imposed as the leader. The hype around Cohen's personal goal of signing him (dinner at his home and player favoring contract) gave Lindor a legitimacy ....of course players are going to be disgruntled.

Problem was that the hitting, that worked in 2019 and 2020 all of a sudden fell apart.....not helped as the newly imposed leader is struggling.

Maybe a less grandiose entry into the clubhouse where he gravitated to leader would have been more preferable.
 

amazin port

Refugee
I've felt this way since the fight first happened. Well first it was clear there's no way they could be a double play tandem long term. But McNeil's underperformance and poor attitude further seals his inevitable departure for me. Also, you say there's no leader. What's stopping you from stepping up and leading, Jeffrey? Instead he just whines every time he makes an out. I can't take this guy's BS.
McNeil (like Alonso) isnt a leader. McNeil's too insecure to ever take command. I think he's a golfing loaner who takes failure seriously and wants to work on his demons alone (not have a fellow struggler preach/advise).
 
Well whatever the adaptions are .....we never got the memo. Look at the hitting decline from 2019 and 2020 to what happened this year.

How could a team go from a decent and excellently ranked offence in 2019 and 2020 and then in 2021, ranked
Ave - 20th
OBP - 17th
Slg - 25th
wOBA - 21st
wRC+ - 16th

People decry the basic nature of Batting Ave, but when ostensibly the same team went:

2019 - . 274 - 2nd (ranked)
2020 - .272 - 1st
2021 - .328 - 20th 🤷‍♂️🤷‍♂️🤷‍♂️ ....there has to be an organisational reason/input into why.

The game changes, but you play the game to your strengths, your environment and what best suits your players.....no two teams are the same
But that's what I'm asking dude. For specifics, not just "they sucked because their approach sucked, because they struck out a lot." They didn't strike out a lot, I think Frank just watches the Mets and doesn't realize that a lot of strikeouts is no different from any other team today.
 

Fargol

Refugee
All the talk I see about someone becoming a "leader" so he can get in the faces of the players not producing.

Does that actually, really happen in MLB nowadays? Do we know a player who does that with their team? We probably wouldn't given how it would happen behind closed doors but I would think something like that would manage to get leaked out.

I definitely CAN see a guy like Baez doing that, and while it might work with rookies, I can't see him doing that to a vet. I could see him doing that, then causing friction which will do more harm than good. And what happens if Baez is stinking the place up and K'ing every other at bat?

And would he get into Lindor's face?
 

amazin port

Refugee
But that's what I'm asking dude. For specifics, not just "they sucked because their approach sucked, because they struck out a lot." They didn't strike out a lot, I think Frank just watches the Mets and doesn't realize that a lot of strikeouts is no different from any other team today.
For me it starts with Lindor shouldnt hit 2nd. The success of 2019 and 2020 was based on high OBP at 1 and 2 (maybe 'old fashioned' but it worked).

McNeil hits better with nobody on base and with Nimmo getting on base with his 400+ OBP we'll be setting up the middle order, thats the reason I want Marte as he get's on base . Add to that Lindor's 2021 figures are way better with players on base (.851 OPS) and with RISP (.934), when batting .650 OPS with bases empty says were werent utilizing the players best talents.

There has to be some reason as to the dramatic decline from good hitting in 2019, the excellent hitting in 2020 to what we were doing in 2021.

Oh there's also the differential between out hitting with nobody on and no/one outs (still good in 2021) and our hitting with RISP......if I had a punt i'd say the organisation is over thinging batting approaches as the world knows our problem.....that's what I loved about Baez....just swing at the ball rather than overthink what to do in certain counts.

As regards the K situations, thats the problem, we're more content to stay conservative, move the ducks and leave it to the next guy.....rather than take a swing (to me they're scared or instructed to raise the pitch count.....and miss out on hittable balls).
 

amazin port

Refugee
But that's what I'm asking dude. For specifics, not just "they sucked because their approach sucked, because they struck out a lot." They didn't strike out a lot, I think Frank just watches the Mets and doesn't realize that a lot of strikeouts is no different from any other team today.
Sorry, just edited on my thoughts on K's
 
I think it underscores the futility of Lindor's contract at the time it was signed. He would have been the perfect "leader" to get in faces and shit like that, but he was pretty abysmal at the plate for the first 2/3's of the season. It's kinda hard to be that guy when you're making that much cake and you hit like shit. Then came the choking incident, which let's be honest, probably wasn't necessary. Probably best just to let McNeil blow off some steam. Even if McNeil damaged the clubhouse, let management send him the bill. I'm not sure choking McNeil and throwing him up against the wall was the best move there. And I'm not defending McNeil, I just don't see the benefit. Rojas knew McNeil was a loose cannon. Let Rojas deal with it if it's becoming too big a distraction. It's not like we didn't witness Lindor pound his bat into the ground and yell out FUCK! in frustration after a few of his strikeouts. And then there was the embarrassing thumbs down thing. That ain't leadership. That's whining.

So, I don't see the problem with McNeil or Loup's comments. They're most likely very authentic and true. It was obvious the synergy on the team sucked ass. The whole season felt forced. And whenever Loup speaks, I listen. Dude hit a player with the bases loaded in his first pitch as a Met and comes back to have that kind of season. Whatever he's doing, whatever he's thinking, I want the team to know about it.
 

PapaToe

Butthurt Boomer
It’s the RISP, less than 2 out and zero adjustments to the swing for the yard approach that killed us. How many times did we have someone on second with no outs, and watch K, K, dribbler to end the frame. I think Chili Davis was someone that would have challenged guys on this, but he seemed to be a lame duck, even before plaid shirt guy assumed GM
 

amazin port

Refugee
It’s the RISP, less than 2 out and zero adjustments to the swing for the yard approach that killed us. How many times did we have someone on second with no outs, and watch K, K, dribbler to end the frame. I think Chili Davis was someone that would have challenged guys on this, but he seemed to be a lame duck, even before plaid shirt guy assumed GM
I think you'll find that our OBP with RISP was still pretty decent.
 

CatchTheRisingStars

Veteran Refugee
As regards the K situations, thats the problem, we're more content to stay conservative, move the ducks and leave it to the next guy.....rather than take a swing (to me they're scared or instructed to raise the pitch count.....and miss out on hittable balls).
I don't think this describes our hitting at all. We had one of the most free swinging teams in the league, and have for the past few years.
 

Fargol

Refugee
Yeah the way I read it was that they didn’t have that in your face, let’s fucking get going guy. We all saw that when they were tanking everyone was all “we are good, I love this group” blah blah blah.
Well, for all we know, that was the attitude on the outside. We don't really know what went on behind closed doors among the players, but I do tend to believe it probably wasn't much different.
 

nyrfan0815

Jeff Wilpon
Well, for all we know, that was the attitude on the outside. We don't really know what went on behind closed doors among the players, but I do tend to believe it probably wasn't much different.
Yeah that was the attitude on the outside and based on Loup and McNeil’s comments I’m think behind closed doors it was more of the same
 
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