Loup/McNeil "Mets lacked clubhouse leader"

millertyme44

Registered User
They were going on about this on WFAN all morning also and of course everyone jumps to the 86 team comparisons. Yes great the 86 team had a bunch of lunatics and hot heads and better leaders. You know what else it had? Far and away the most talented team in baseball on the field. The reason they won 108 games and a WS was not b/c kevin mitchell cut off his girlfriends cats head or b/c they got into a bunch of fights - it was b/c they were an insanely talented baseball team. I could not care if the entire team next year did not smile or laugh or get mad once or talk to the press or anything who cares just go play baseball well.

This entire narrative is so dumb. People back into extraneous reasons why teams play well and do the same when teams play bad. Teams not scoring runs? They look bored, disinterested, no fire.
Yankees during most of the season were an unlikeable team who had no chemistry and lacked "it".
Yankees during their 13 game winning streak? Unstoppable team coming together, really gelling, the trade deadline deals really motivated everyone to play well.
Yankees after? Oh they suck again, theres no leadership, fire Boone bla bla bla.

Mike Trout is the most boring person in the entire world I'm pretty sure we would welcome 25 of him on our team.
Baez first week here - great spark plug, finally giving team some life
Baez during thumbs-downgate - jackass who ruined the clubhouse chemistry and ruined the team
Baez a week later back to a 950 OPS - great spark plug, finally giving team some life, have to resign him

JUST WIN GAMES. Hit the ball, score runs, pitch well that is it. Everything else is noise.

To think that the reason this team sucked and could not hit the ball was b/c there was nobody in the clubhouse to tell mcneil or dom "hey guys you suck you should really start playing better" is one of the dumbest things I have ever heard and nobody can seriously believe that.
 

JPSchmack

HOF'er Who Needs To Retire
Administrator
Yes great the 86 team had a bunch of lunatics and hot heads and better leaders. You know what else it had? Far and away the most talented team in baseball on the field. The reason they won 108 games and a WS was not b/c kevin mitchell cut off his girlfriends cats head or b/c they got into a bunch of fights - it was b/c they were an insanely talented baseball team.
You look at that roster and watch the highlights, and if Gooden isn't on coke, and Strawberry isn't too hungover to play a dozen times, that team could have won 130 games.
 

Ballpark_Frankx

Bunting for Backman
But that's what I'm asking dude. For specifics, not just "they sucked because their approach sucked, because they struck out a lot." They didn't strike out a lot, I think Frank just watches the Mets and doesn't realize that a lot of strikeouts is no different from any other team today.
But its not only about the strike outs just like small ball is just about bunting which is the mongo default take.

How many times did we concsiously decide to break the shift? How many times did we put runners in motion even 3-2 with 1 out to avoid the DP? Its loser mentality and absolutely boring as fuck? And worse, extremely predictable.

So while you may love your HRs figure out what % of hits went for doubles and how those declined. How about just putting the ball in play with RISP?

Cant believe this needs to be explained but try watch the teams that advance and see how the game is played. If we go into next season with the same BS approach you may as just watch reruns of this season. Cos its not gonna change..
 

egelband

Refugee
They were going on about this on WFAN all morning also and of course everyone jumps to the 86 team comparisons. Yes great the 86 team had a bunch of lunatics and hot heads and better leaders. You know what else it had? Far and away the most talented team in baseball on the field. The reason they won 108 games and a WS was not b/c kevin mitchell cut off his girlfriends cats head or b/c they got into a bunch of fights - it was b/c they were an insanely talented baseball team. I could not care if the entire team next year did not smile or laugh or get mad once or talk to the press or anything who cares just go play baseball well.

This entire narrative is so dumb. People back into extraneous reasons why teams play well and do the same when teams play bad. Teams not scoring runs? They look bored, disinterested, no fire.
Yankees during most of the season were an unlikeable team who had no chemistry and lacked "it".
Yankees during their 13 game winning streak? Unstoppable team coming together, really gelling, the trade deadline deals really motivated everyone to play well.
Yankees after? Oh they suck again, theres no leadership, fire Boone bla bla bla.

Mike Trout is the most boring person in the entire world I'm pretty sure we would welcome 25 of him on our team.
Baez first week here - great spark plug, finally giving team some life
Baez during thumbs-downgate - jackass who ruined the clubhouse chemistry and ruined the team
Baez a week later back to a 950 OPS - great spark plug, finally giving team some life, have to resign him

JUST WIN GAMES. Hit the ball, score runs, pitch well that is it. Everything else is noise.

To think that the reason this team sucked and could not hit the ball was b/c there was nobody in the clubhouse to tell mcneil or dom "hey guys you suck you should really start playing better" is one of the dumbest things I have ever heard and nobody can seriously believe that.
Yeah. The 86 team probably won *despite* the insanity and immaturity.
 

amazin port

Refugee
But its not only about the strike outs just like small ball is just about bunting which is the mongo default take.

How many times did we concsiously decide to break the shift? How many times did we put runners in motion even 3-2 with 1 out to avoid the DP? Its loser mentality and absolutely boring as fuck? And worse, extremely predictable.

So while you may love your HRs figure out what % of hits went for doubles and how those declined. How about just putting the ball in play with RISP?

Cant believe this needs to be explained but try watch the teams that advance and see how the game is played. If we go into next season with the same BS approach you may as just watch reruns of this season. Cos its not gonna change..
Interesting that we all agree that our hitting with No Outs and Nobody On....is pretty good (i think ranked top5 (ish) AVE and OBP, and we all acknowledge that the HITTING FALLS OFF A CLIFF when hitting with RISP and with 2 outs.....but why?

Some see a too aggressive approach as the fault, however, I see the high leverage AB's being compromised due to overly cautious start to the AB, taking and allowing the pitcher to get to 2 strikes which compromises the rest of the AB as we're chocking up....

.....I would think there's a book that says, just throw strikes when RISP/ or 2 outs as Mets hitters will take.

Baez's different approach worked, as he doesnt conform to the "Mets Style"....also love his small ball base running, getting away from that conservative station-to-station approach. It's making something happen, rather than 'hoping' it happens.
 
But its not only about the strike outs just like small ball is just about bunting which is the mongo default take.

How many times did we concsiously decide to break the shift? How many times did we put runners in motion even 3-2 with 1 out to avoid the DP? Its loser mentality and absolutely boring as fuck? And worse, extremely predictable.

So while you may love your HRs figure out what % of hits went for doubles and how those declined. How about just putting the ball in play with RISP?

Cant believe this needs to be explained but try watch the teams that advance and see how the game is played. If we go into next season with the same BS approach you may as just watch reruns of this season. Cos its not gonna change..
No, why don't you tell me how each team that's advancing plays the game differently than the Mets? Give me specific examples and/or stats that show that success correlates with certain approaches. It's not that you need to explain it. You need to prove it.
 

GrittyandGutty

Politics Pelf
They were going on about this on WFAN all morning also and of course everyone jumps to the 86 team comparisons. Yes great the 86 team had a bunch of lunatics and hot heads and better leaders. You know what else it had? Far and away the most talented team in baseball on the field. The reason they won 108 games and a WS was not b/c kevin mitchell cut off his girlfriends cats head or b/c they got into a bunch of fights - it was b/c they were an insanely talented baseball team. I could not care if the entire team next year did not smile or laugh or get mad once or talk to the press or anything who cares just go play baseball well.

This entire narrative is so dumb. People back into extraneous reasons why teams play well and do the same when teams play bad. Teams not scoring runs? They look bored, disinterested, no fire.
Yankees during most of the season were an unlikeable team who had no chemistry and lacked "it".
Yankees during their 13 game winning streak? Unstoppable team coming together, really gelling, the trade deadline deals really motivated everyone to play well.
Yankees after? Oh they suck again, theres no leadership, fire Boone bla bla bla.

Mike Trout is the most boring person in the entire world I'm pretty sure we would welcome 25 of him on our team.
Baez first week here - great spark plug, finally giving team some life
Baez during thumbs-downgate - jackass who ruined the clubhouse chemistry and ruined the team
Baez a week later back to a 950 OPS - great spark plug, finally giving team some life, have to resign him

JUST WIN GAMES. Hit the ball, score runs, pitch well that is it. Everything else is noise.

To think that the reason this team sucked and could not hit the ball was b/c there was nobody in the clubhouse to tell mcneil or dom "hey guys you suck you should really start playing better" is one of the dumbest things I have ever heard and nobody can seriously believe that.
they lack fire and came out flat is my favorite go to sports cliche.

how do you lack fire and go through the motions attempting to hit a baseball?
 
I could only get through about a page and a half of this thread and just couldn't take it anymore.

Has anyone asked McNeil, Loup--hell, CONFORTO for that matter--why THEY didn't take it upon themselves to be a team leader? Especially since they've decided all on their own that leadership is what's needed and missing? Were they waiting for engraved invitations? Congressional mandate? What?

(n)🤦‍♂️🤦‍♂️🤦‍♂️(n)
 

amazin port

Refugee
I could only get through about a page and a half of this thread and just couldn't take it anymore.

Has anyone asked McNeil, Loup--hell, CONFORTO for that matter--why THEY didn't take it upon themselves to be a team leader? Especially since they've decided all on their own that leadership is what's needed and missing? Were they waiting for engraved invitations? Congressional mandate? What?

(n)🤦‍♂️🤦‍♂️🤦‍♂️(n)
Leaders gravitate to the position by personal skills McNeil/Conforto (nor Alonso) are NOT leaders.
The issue is that there wasn't a leader in the group and that in the case of McNeil he didn't like Lindor assuming the role.
It may be a co-incidence but Cano may be that 'respected' veteran that lends itself to the Leadership role.... and then we have Lindor's comments about an apology. There may well be some disconnect that the owners annotated favored son has come in and is doing everything rather than perform to the level of his salary.
 

blueNorange

Woke and Broke
I could only get through about a page and a half of this thread and just couldn't take it anymore.

Has anyone asked McNeil, Loup--hell, CONFORTO for that matter--why THEY didn't take it upon themselves to be a team leader? Especially since they've decided all on their own that leadership is what's needed and missing? Were they waiting for engraved invitations? Congressional mandate? What?

(n)🤦‍♂️🤦‍♂️🤦‍♂️(n)
the quote was taken out of context.
 

GRANDSTRANDED

Lindor’s Bitch
You guys keep talking about leadership, or a lack thereof. That’s not the issue. I think you know it, but nobody wants to come out and say it.
A lot of you are too young too remember Reggie Jackson and his “straw that stirs the drink” comment/ controversy. He was a superstar FA who rubbed everyone in the Yankee clubhouse the wrong way from the minute he got there. His teammates put up with him though, because when the lights came on he produced in the big moments.
Now you’ve got another team in NY years later… they sign a big star to a huge new deal. He comes in teeth flashing, bff with the new owner who pushed to sign him to the big extension.
He starts off ice cold. He jumps one of his teammates in the dugout’s tunnel during a game. He underperforms at the plate all year. He pushes for the team to trade for his buddy at the deadline Then he calls out the fans for booing him. He ends the season telling a very popular teammate he needs to “apologize” for his suspension.
That’s the guy who is going to “fit in”? He’s the guy you think a team wants to rally around?
Unlike with Reggie and the Yankees, the team isn’t winning, and the chemistry isn’t there. In fact, the team regressed. What does this team do? How do they fix this?
 
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Longrod Von Schlongpepper

Little dick energy Opto aka NYRomy the Clown
You guys keep talking about leadership, or a lack thereof. That’s not the issue. I think you know it, but nobody wants to come out and say it.
A lot of you are too young too remember Reggie Jackson and his “straw that stirs the drink” comment/ controversy. He was a superstar FA who rubbed everyone in the Yankee clubhouse the wrong way from the minute he got there. His teammates put up with him though, because when the lights came on he produced in the big moments.
Now you’ve got another team in NY years later… they sign a big star to a huge new deal. He comes in teeth flashing, bff with the new owner who pushed to sign him to the big extension.
He starts off ice cold. He jumps one of his teammates in the dugout’s tunnel during a game. He underperforms at the plate all year. He pushes for the team to trade for his buddy at the deadline Then he calls out the fans for booing him. He ends the season telling a very popular teammate he needs to “apologize” for his suspension.
That’s the leader you expect a team to rally around?
Unlike with Reggie and the Yankees, the team isn’t winning, and the chemistry isn’t there. In fact, the team regressed. What does this team do? How do they fix this?
Get help. Your hatred of and obsession with Lindor is borderline psychotic.
 
These are grown men we're talking about, right? Do they really need someone--anyone--to take 'em by the hand and say "go get 'em?"

Or do they find their motivation elsewhere--perhaps from within?

If guys don't want to accept leadership from Lindor because they don't like him or whatever, then by all means seek leadership elsewhere. But if you don't find any, maybe be you should look within. What DOESN'T help is whining to the press about how you're not motivated. It just makes you (the proverbial "you") look like a jackass. Just sayin'....🤷‍♂️
 

Longrod Von Schlongpepper

Little dick energy Opto aka NYRomy the Clown
Instead of going with your stock village idiot response, try something different.
Explain what you disagree with in my post.
Well, for one, Lindor didn't get into a fight with his manager on the field or publicly claim he was better than everyone else on the team, as Jackson did. He didn't go to war against the owner of the team, as Jackson did.

Secondly, you claiming he "jumped" one of his teammates is not only false but borderline racist.

Third, there's zero proof that he pushed for any trade, let alone one for Baez. Baez is the one who publicly stated he'd only move to second base for Lindor, not the other way around.

Him "demanding" an apology from Cano is absolute bullshit made up by the media that you, of course, bought into hook, line, and sinker. What he actually did was respond to a question about Cano by saying he'll probably have to apologize to the guys on the team he let down by not being here this year and gushed about how much he (Lindor) idolized Cano growing up.

So, once again, you're absolutely full of shit and have an unhealthy hatred of Lindor. Probably because he isn't white.
 

GRANDSTRANDED

Lindor’s Bitch
Well, for one, Lindor didn't get into a fight with his manager on the field or publicly claim he was better than everyone else on the team, as Jackson did. He didn't go to war against the owner of the team, as Jackson did.

Secondly, you claiming he "jumped" one of his teammates is not only false but borderline racist.

Third, there's zero proof that he pushed for any trade, let alone one for Baez. Baez is the one who publicly stated he'd only move to second base for Lindor, not the other way around.

Him "demanding" an apology from Cano is absolute bullshit made up by the media that you, of course, bought into hook, line, and sinker. What he actually did was respond to a question about Cano by saying he'll probably have to apologize to the guys on the team he let down by not being here this year and gushed about how much he (Lindor) idolized Cano growing up.

So, once again, you're absolutely full of shit and have an unhealthy hatred of Lindor. Probably because he isn't white.
See, this is where I lose all respect for you. We could’ve had a discussion here, and ultimately agreed to disagree, but you can’t do that. You always take the low road, always go over the top.
In this case it’s with the rascism remarks. If it’s not that, you call someone a MAGA or what ever other term you think might offend. You are incapable of a civil debate. You’re a child.
I’ve never said I would ignore someone on a message board, but I’m done responding to you.
Keep doing what you do… I’ll just sit back and watch your next implosion, then read your apologetic post where you vow to make an effort to be a better person. Then I’ll watch it happen again over and over again.
 

Longrod Von Schlongpepper

Little dick energy Opto aka NYRomy the Clown
See, this is where I lose all respect for you. We could’ve had a discussion here, and ultimately agreed to disagree, but you can’t do that. You always take the low road, always go over the top.
In this case it’s with the rascism remarks. If it’s not that, you call someone a MAGA or what ever other term you think might offend. You are incapable of a civil debate. You’re a child.
I’ve never said I would ignore someone on a message board, but I’m done responding to you.
Keep doing what you do… I’ll just sit back and watch your next implosion, then read your apologetic post where you vow to make an effort to be a better person. Then I’ll watch it happen again over and over again.
Nice deflection. Typical for your type.
 

ChocolateZorro

Uniquely Gendered
sometimes its easier for people to focus on how someone talks rather than what they say. that or its an out to avoid having to address facts that are brought to light

its a thing that happens often in communication, regardless of if the facts are accurate

i try my best to avoid using language where people can do that in response, because id rather they understand than have an excuse to shift the topic. that kinda reaction is not the best move, more of a cop out, but its a common move nonetheless.
 

ChocolateZorro

Uniquely Gendered
the facts were laid out, and instead grand took the "its not what you say but how you say it" response, rather than addressing the facts
 

BennySammy

Parents should have arranged for deodorant instead
Moderator
Lindor "jumped" one of his teammates, haha

we have no idea what happened, but we do know that McNeil was pouting in the locker room after getting an out and Lindor just gave the Mets a lead with a HR, so Lindor went into the locker room to see McNeil, and some fracas broke out...we have no idea who the aggressor is, but Lindor going into that locker room to talk to a pouty McNeil showed the leadership you're asking from him...I doubt it was just McNeil being like, "Shucks mister, I just wanna get a hit is all..." and then Lindor throws him in the crippler crossface...if I was to guess who the aggressor was, I'd think it's the guy that left the field in a huff and not the guy that just hit a HR
 

Ballpark_Frankx

Bunting for Backman
No, why don't you tell me how each team that's advancing plays the game differently than the Mets? Give me specific examples and/or stats that show that success correlates with certain approaches. It's not that you need to explain it. You need to prove it.
I'll go for the low hanging fruit first. When was the last time we saw a Met steal home like Arozarena. Or a simple Safety squeeze perhaps?

ok nevermind the exotic stuff...how about they actually put some kind of emphasis on base stealing? Easiest comp there is the Rosario 12 for 12 this year. He didn't get faster, they likely (and don't know this factually) worked with him on his leads and breaks to 2nd.

When we played St. Louis ... notice when they got ahead by a run, they pushed the envelope further by having Goldschmidt steal. They hit opposite the shift extremely well. It's about expanding the lead without waiting on the HR. Puts teams on their heals... shifted guys have a more difficult time and it distracts pitchers. That much was obvious whenever Baez got on.

Lots of small things that add up over the course of the year. Not all are going to be successful. And I would guess that amoung this group, no one wants to go against the grain (until Baez showed up) cos it didn't matter with him. Mets don't like it? Too bad, he can go elsewhere where they actually play to win games instead of playing not to lose.

If you want me to do a team by team analysis ...ain't gonna happen... my posts are already too long.
 

ciarlatano

Refugee
Secondly, you claiming he "jumped" one of his teammates is not only false but borderline racist.

So, once again, you're absolutely full of shit and have an unhealthy hatred of Lindor. Probably because he isn't white.
Unless I missed something somewhere along the line, there is absolutely nothing racist in what he said. With such an incredible amount of legit racist comments, no need to try to steer innocent comments that way. It makes it seem like you are projecting.

Lindor strikes me as a kind of guy who could be a great leader here. We saw it early on with him helping with fielding positioning, etc on the field. But he was also under an enormous amount of pressure with the contract, and got off to a bad start which probably put the weight of the world on his shoulders. That would likely affect his leadership abilities, coupled with being the new guy in the clubhouse. I could see him being a Keith Hernandez type once he settles in.
 
You look at that roster and watch the highlights, and if Gooden isn't on coke, and Strawberry isn't too hungover to play a dozen times, that team could have won 130 games.
Imagine if Gooden was 85 Gooden in 1986. Same for 87 and 88. Even if he stayed closer to his 84 and 85 years we could have easily won three straight.
 

Ballpark_Frankx

Bunting for Backman
“The Mets should try more straight steals of home plate” is a take alright
How about settling for just mixing it up and playing some baseball then? 26th in doubles and Tied for 24th in SB's right there with Baltimore and Minnesota - two last place teams. Twins may have also been victim to the deadened ball this year because that was their MO during their first place run previously.

Don't know how to say it any other way... read this twice if you have to. It's not that you're no longer hitting HR's because you're going to alter the way you play the game. It's that in games separated by a single run... or when you have the shit-show 2nd base in Xtras rule in place, you know how to get that run home. If anything, you may hit more HR's or at least score more runs because the defense is having to relocate opeing holes. It may cause more distractions - affecting pitch calling. It's just simply having a plan B and something other teams need to take notice of.

And if we bring in a guy like Marte, we damn well better be shifting our emphasis quite abit because that speed is one of the skills we'll be paying him for.
 
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