Loup/McNeil "Mets lacked clubhouse leader"

sross07

Veteran Refugee
You guys keep talking about leadership, or a lack thereof. That’s not the issue. I think you know it, but nobody wants to come out and say it.
A lot of you are too young too remember Reggie Jackson and his “straw that stirs the drink” comment/ controversy. He was a superstar FA who rubbed everyone in the Yankee clubhouse the wrong way from the minute he got there. His teammates put up with him though, because when the lights came on he produced in the big moments.
Now you’ve got another team in NY years later… they sign a big star to a huge new deal. He comes in teeth flashing, bff with the new owner who pushed to sign him to the big extension.
He starts off ice cold. He jumps one of his teammates in the dugout’s tunnel during a game. He underperforms at the plate all year. He pushes for the team to trade for his buddy at the deadline Then he calls out the fans for booing him. He ends the season telling a very popular teammate he needs to “apologize” for his suspension.
That’s the guy who is going to “fit in”? He’s the guy you think a team wants to rally around?
Unlike with Reggie and the Yankees, the team isn’t winning, and the chemistry isn’t there. In fact, the team regressed. What does this team do? How do they fix this?
There are so many dumb comments in this post and it just keeps snowballing.

The ultimate was about Cano. Of course Cano should apologize. He fucking cheated. HE FUCKING CHEATED.
 

Ford Prefect

Refugee
When you don't win when you should, it's always about the clubhouse and intangibles like "leadership". The Mets sucked this year because they didn't hit.
So you don't think there's any logic behind the lack of leadership & the lack of performance? This is a job to them. How is it any different than your job? Are there people you've come across in your work life who perform better/worse depending on the leadership within the department?

I'm not saying a team can't succeed without good leadership, but I'm also saying it doesn't hurt to have good leadership.
 

Hire

Veteran Refugee
Administrator
Lindor's comments about Cano were completely fine, he was specifically asked about him and answered a question. He didn't "demand" an apology like the stupid headlines want you to believe.

Why shouldn't Cano have to apologize anyway? If he was truly going to produce like some of you say, his suspension certainly didn't help the Mets or his teammates.

“He probably has to apologize,” Lindor told The Post. “I am assuming that is what he is going to do when he comes back and just talk to the group and address the group and just be sincere and honest with himself and with us.”

Cano’s latest suspension, announced last November, came after he tested positive for Stanozolol, an anabolic steroid. While with the Mariners, he was suspended 80 games in May 2018 after a positive test for Furosemide, a diuretic that is used as a masking agent for other drugs.

Despite that history, Lindor expects Cano to be received “fine” in the clubhouse.

“He’s got to be honest with the group, but I know at the end of the day he’s a man, and we all make mistakes, and he’s been in the game for a long time,” Lindor said. “Most of the guys that are playing right now looked up to him when we were growing up. I was one of the guys who looked up to him and seeing him on the biggest stage doing it and then playing against him, playing with him in All-Star Games and stuff, he was always fun.”
 

sross07

Veteran Refugee
So you don't think there's any logic behind the lack of leadership & the lack of performance? This is a job to them. How is it any different than your job? Are there people you've come across in your work life who perform better/worse depending on the leadership within the department?

I'm not saying a team can't succeed without good leadership, but I'm also saying it doesn't hurt to have good leadership.
My point was leadership and clubhouse fodder is these things are always the thing people blame when things go south. and for this team specifically, this team had great chemistry during the season right up to the point it didn't. I mean it was put on a pedestal the chemistry of this tea.

I don't buy the bullshit. McNeil and whoever else is bitching about leadership need to look at themselves in the mirror. Their shitty performance is why the team collapsed.
 
So you don't think there's any logic behind the lack of leadership & the lack of performance? This is a job to them. How is it any different than your job? Are there people you've come across in your work life who perform better/worse depending on the leadership within the department?

I'm not saying a team can't succeed without good leadership, but I'm also saying it doesn't hurt to have good leadership.
Yeah, I agree with this. It's hard to explain 70% of the team under-performing simultaneously. Particularly a guy like McNeil, who clearly carries mistakes/mental lapses with him in the field and to the plate.

They are people, at the end of the day. Some people have the ability to forget things and move on, some don't. That's where leadership comes in.
 
Every player needs to take responsibility for themselves. With that said, leaders aren't anointed, they emerge after earning trust and respect. It happens organically. I don't see anyone who fits that criteria in this Mets locker room right now.

Compounding the matter was Rojas' lack of managerial leadership.
 

GRANDSTRANDED

Lindor’s Bitch
So, I took the hood off, still don’t see it. Would it have mattered if he used the words “choked” or “choked out”? Good thing we have a Sensitivity Monitor here on site.
I don’t know why you bother responding to that lunatic.
I’m amazed that guy is allowed to post the crap he does. It’s disgusting, and you always see the same jackasses upvoting it.
I like talking baseball here, but when the sewage from the politics board seeps in here, I just walk away from their stench.
 

Longrod Von Schlongpepper

Little dick energy Opto aka NYRomy the Clown
I don’t know why you bother responding to that lunatic.
I’m amazed that guy is allowed to post the crap he does. It’s disgusting, and you always see the same jackasses upvoting it.
I like talking baseball here, but when the sewage from the politics board seeps in here, I just walk away from their stench.
So papatoe and sheahey support you! Good for you! The guy who bashed Stroman for wearing a durag and the guy who still thinks batting average is the best statistic to judge a player have your back! Think about that for a moment.
 

tejdog1

A Tej
I'll go for the low hanging fruit first. When was the last time we saw a Met steal home like Arozarena. Or a simple Safety squeeze perhaps?

ok nevermind the exotic stuff...how about they actually put some kind of emphasis on base stealing? Easiest comp there is the Rosario 12 for 12 this year. He didn't get faster, they likely (and don't know this factually) worked with him on his leads and breaks to 2nd.

When we played St. Louis ... notice when they got ahead by a run, they pushed the envelope further by having Goldschmidt steal. They hit opposite the shift extremely well. It's about expanding the lead without waiting on the HR. Puts teams on their heals... shifted guys have a more difficult time and it distracts pitchers. That much was obvious whenever Baez got on.

Lots of small things that add up over the course of the year. Not all are going to be successful. And I would guess that amoung this group, no one wants to go against the grain (until Baez showed up) cos it didn't matter with him. Mets don't like it? Too bad, he can go elsewhere where they actually play to win games instead of playing not to lose.

If you want me to do a team by team analysis ...ain't gonna happen... my posts are already too long.
I agree with the premise of this post, but uh... WHAT? I don't think we have the players to be trying this. Nor should we.
But not hitting and running with McNeil, Dom, Conforto, to force them to hit the ball... that's a mistake. Coming into the year we had arguably the best team TO hit and run with, so many .285+ hitters, etc...
 

tejdog1

A Tej
Jeff McNeil coming into 2021 was like... LITERALLY a create a player for the hit and run. 80 bat to ball skills, like... 65/70 avoid Ks, 70 hit tool... (and yes, it all fell apart, but I said coming into 2021, not after)
 

amazin port

Refugee
Every player needs to take responsibility for themselves. With that said, leaders aren't anointed, they emerge after earning trust and respect. It happens organically. I don't see anyone who fits that criteria in this Mets locker room right now.

Compounding the matter was Rojas' lack of managerial leadership.
Agree with a lot of what you say, but it's the dichotomy of looking at players as individuals and having individual responsibility for their performance and the fact that nearly the whole starting roster had down years from their career average.

Looked at our fellow NL East teams to compare whether performance was down in the division due to the shortened season in 2020.....no it was just us.

I suppose we're looking for the answers why.
 

amazin port

Refugee
Why didn’t McNeil step up and be a leader when he recognized this supposed lack of leadership?
Because McNeil's not a leader....the problem was, as he says, there was no leader in the clubhouse (inc Rojas) and those that tried to pick up the mantel (Lindor) or were pushed into it (Alonso) aren't leaders either.

I think Lindor could be, however, going into a clubhouse as he did I think he needed to establish himself as one of the boys first. I dont blame him per se as I dont know if he was: pushed into the leadership, expected to take control or saw it as his role (due to money, personality, exposure and full backing of the owner).....but it appears to have rubbed certain players up the wrong way.
 

ciarlatano

Refugee
Because McNeil's not a leader....the problem was, as he says, there was no leader in the clubhouse (inc Rojas) and those that tried to pick up the mantel (Lindor) or were pushed into it (Alonso) aren't leaders either.

I think Lindor could be, however, going into a clubhouse as he did I think he needed to establish himself as one of the boys first. I dont blame him per se as I dont know if he was: pushed into the leadership, expected to take control or saw it as his role (due to money, personality, exposure and full backing of the owner).....but it appears to have rubbed certain players up the wrong way.
He was showing a lot of leadership qualities in ST, and was getting respect from others in the clubhouse. I just think the contract pressure and bad start took a toll on what he was doing. Once he settles in, it appears he will be a, or THE, leader on this team. But expecting a 27 year old guy to walk through the door with all of that on his shoulders and turn into 1985 Keith Hernandez is unrealistic. I am expecting to see some big changes in him next year in that regard with a season under his belt. We already saw flashes of it early. The right manager is going to also be a big help.
 

PapaToe

Butthurt Boomer
Once he settles in, it appears he will be a, or THE, leader on this team.
Yes, what’s done is done. Some of us didn’t want to admit it at the time, but when Steveco anointed him the Franchise in March it signaled the end of the core group of guys who were leading by committee. For better or worse, they now need to rebuild around Lindor. Expecting him to be someone he is not isn’t realistic. As you say finding the right manager will be key.
 

PoopDoop

River Baby!
Someone I know told me last week "Lindor acts like he thinks a leader is supposed to, but he doesn't get what it actually means" I asked what that means, and he said "look at the rallying stuff you see him do on the field, he thinks he's supposed to be seen doing that but he doesn't understand why he's supposed to"

Take it for what it's worth
 

dmtt61d

Veteran Refugee
Looking at the Cleveland teams Lindor came up thriving on, he always had more seasoned guys around him who probably served as leaders on the team; Jason Kipnis, Carlos Santana, Michael Brantley, plus some respected vet leaders with shorter stays there at different times, like Mike Napoli, Rajai Davis, Papi Uribe, Edwin Encarnacion, etc. He was always their best player, but was always on some pretty veteran-laden teams that probably never looked to him for that kind of leadership.

Our younger guys here are obviously not THAT young; basically Lindor's peers in the latter half of their 20s. But this was basically the first time he was playing on a team without a bunch of older vet leaders, and thus probably the first time he felt like he needed to be that leader, I'm sure also fueled by the pressure of his big new contract. Seems like he maybe didn't really know how to do that. Hopefully he figures it out more in time.
 

dmtt61d

Veteran Refugee
if the mets won 98 games this year we would hear that lindor was the best leader ever.

just win baseball games.
But they won 77 games, as he fell short of expectations. That leads to understandable questions of what went wrong for both he and the team so you can work to fix it and take a better shot at getting to 98 wins.
 

You > Valent

Future POBO
It's not that complicated...he got a massive contract in the biggest market and felt he had to justify it in a million ways beyond just playing well.
yea and no matter someone's salary, you can't just paint them a "leader." who the fuck wants to even be a leader? also, why do grown men desperately need a leader? and if "leaders" are so important as they seem from that dogshit team, why isn't the new age manager simply just a "clubhouse leader?" b/c he doesn't take the field?

"We were really bad, but then old league average player yelled at us, and now we're good!"
 
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